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    Bodyweight Fitness: BWF Daily Discussion and Beginner/RR Questions Thread for 2020-07-02

    July 02, 2020

    Bodyweight Fitness: BWF Daily Discussion and Beginner/RR Questions Thread for 2020-07-02

    BWF Daily Discussion and Beginner/RR Questions Thread for 2020-07-02

    Posted: 01 Jul 2020 11:06 PM PDT

    Welcome to the /r/bodyweightfitness daily discussion thread!

    • Feel free to post beginner questions or just about anything that's on your mind related to fitness!

    Reminders:

    • Read the FAQ as your question may be answered there already.
    • If you're unsure how to start training, check out our Recommended Routine, or our more skills based routine: Move.
    • Even though the rules are relaxed here, asking for medical advice is still not allowed.

    For your reference we also have these weekly threads:

    Join our live conversations on Discord! We're also on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter!

    If you'd like to look at previous Discussion threads, click here.

    submitted by /u/AutoModerator
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    Manna Tutorial

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 12:38 PM PDT

    Back in 2016, I posted a Manna tutorial. Since then, I've revised it a bit.

    This is based on the route that I took, as well as what I would have done differently, so take the following with a grain of salt. What works for me may not for you, and vice versa. Indirect and directs progressions and techniques will be discussed.

    Note that this path will almost certainly lead to a solid 90° V-sit if you follow it correctly.

    Contents

    Training History

    Indirect Progressions

    Direct Progressions

    Technique

    Suggestions

    Training Plan

    Conclusion

    Training History

    My Manna training has been sporadic. I ran competitively, so I would strength train for a while, take a break, strength, so on, all while running quite a bit (40-50 miles per week). I did not strength train consecutively for more eight months during my Manna progressions. I am mentioning this to show that the Manna is achievable in a shorter amount of time than most think, but, then again, I started when I was 17, and I've never heard of a full-fledged adult achieving Manna, nor has Ido Portal (and he's been around the block).

    I got my first 45° V-sit in January 2014. I didn't train Manna until February 2015, when I had my first real attempt. I stopped training, picked it back up in summer of 2015, stopped, then started to train it seriously again in August 2016. I attribute my ability to pick it back up to familiar motor patterns, such as this Chinese gymnast performing a full planche on rings after 15 years of little to no training. Strength may recede, but your body's understanding of the position takes a long time to deteriorate.

    Indirect Progression

    A few different strength and mobility components are required:

    • Shoulder extension/retraction strength (SER)
    • Pike compression and mobility (PiCM)
    • Pancake compression and mobility (PaCM)

    While there are other small things (wrists, balance), I see these three aspects as the main block in one's training for Manna. With that said, reverse engineering Manna will not work. You cannot train all three of these separately, then expect to magically get it.

    Shoulder Extension/Retraction (SER)

    SER is something a lot of people lack due to it being an unused position. I used the following to get stronger in it:

    • Standing shoulder extension with weight. These can be done for reps (2x10-15) or for time (2x15-30s) at the end of training and should be a staple in Manna training. To progress, start with a wide grip at X weight, work to shoulder width (same width as your hands during Manna), then increase weight and go back to a wide grip. Rinse and repeat.
    • German hang to gain SER mobility. For perspective, I can slow dislocate from German hang (GH to regular hang). I worked up to an easy 5x30s on rings, with my body perpendicular to the floor.
    • Reverse plank and leans. My first progression in order to understand this was the table drill. I worked up at 5x30s to make sure I had a solid feeling and endurance in the position. From there, extend the legs to make a reverse plank. Fingers should be towards your feet or slightly turned out and arms perpendicular to the floor. Once you are strong in this position (3x30s), you can begin to lean back. You will not be able to lean much, but it will get better over time. SER should always be first priority, not the leaning. Hands will continue to face forward to stress the triceps and allow lean.

    Pike Compression and Mobility (PiCM)

    Pike mobility must be established before any meaningful progress in compression can occur. I approached PiC from one angle and PiM from two:

    Pancake Compression and Mobility (PaCM)

    This is a huge weak link in everyone I've met, excluding gymnasts and yoga practitioners. Most people have trouble sitting upright in a basic straddle, much less touching their chest to the ground in front of them. Kit Laughlin's Mastering the Pancake is an excellent resource, as are all of his other series.

    • (PaC1) Leg lifts: Same idea as PiC1. Sit in straddle, lean slightly forward, and lift the legs.
    • (PaM1) Pancake: I immediately started to use weight at my neck to get deeper, holding it 60s every time. Goal is chest and stomach to ground. In hindsight, adding weight immediately is probably not a good idea for the general population, so be careful if you choose this route.

    Other Indirect Progressions

    There are a few exercises others use for Manna that I didn't, but I will list them here

    • Manna wall slides. These are great for improving SER strength without having to worry about balance or compression ability.
    • Spotted Manna. I personally did not think of these as that valuable, but I may not have been using them correctly. They are useful for getting used to the final position, and a competent spotter can adjust intensity as needed.
    • Weighted shoulder flex pulls. I used these occasionally for stretching, but never trained them regularly or seriously. Just another tool, and if you enjoy them, go for it.

    Direct Progressions

    The progressions are as follows and should all be done on the floor or parallel bars (preferably floor, as parallel bars for later progressions are much more difficult). Do not worry about hand/wrist positioning until it explicitly says to. The numbers in parentheses establish the order (same numbers means you can work the elements simultaneously) and recommended set x rep scheme, respectively, e.g. (1, 3x15-30s) means this is the first progression you should train and you should work up to 3 sets of 15-30s per set before moving on.

    • (DP1, 3x15-30s) L-sit and progressions (tuck, advanced tuck, full): This is to help establish basic PiCM and depression strength.
    • (DP2.1, 3x15-30s) Straddle L-sit and progressions (tuck, low full, full): This is to help establish basic PaCM. Legs are parallel to the floor, but a bit less than that is fine. These may need to be done on an elevated surface.
    • (DP2.2, 3x15s) Advanced L-sit and progressions: Starting with tuck, actively push the hips forward so they are in line with (or even in front of) your hands and your back is flat. You will need to work these on an elevated surface to allow leg clearance. Work up to 3x15s, extend the legs a bit, rinse and repeat. The scapulas should be relatively neutral or a bit retracted.

    From here, the Manna specific progression begin. Start working with hands backwards to get accustomed to the position. I have only seen two or three people ever with a hands-forward Manna: two trained from a very young age and one is simply strong. Assume hands-forward Manna is impossible. There is not really a solid set x rep scheme to follow.

    • (DP3) Tuck V-sit/Manna: The idea is to push the hips forward, while lifting them up. See beginning of this video before I extend my legs.

    • (DP4) Straddle high V-sit: From the tuck V-sit/Manna, extend the legs out in either direction, looking like this. This is where PaCM comes into play.

    • (DP5) High V-sit: Once you develop strength in the straddle high V-sit, bring your legs together. This is where PiCM helps. Notice how I enter the final position: my legs are in a butterfly stretch, I lift my hips, then extend my legs while continuing to lift my hips.

    • (DP6) Manna: Your legs will continue to get higher and higher in both straddle V-sit and high V-sit until they are eventually parallel. Admittedly, I never achieved a true Manna (legs completely horizontal for 2 seconds). The closest I got was about 10 degrees away from parallel for 1-2 seconds, so pretty close.

    • (DP7) High Manna: One of the rarest moves in the world, but not many people train it. From Manna, lift your legs while maintaining hip height. Progressions and performances here:

    Technique

    While most of it is strength and compression/mobility, there are certain techniques to help entering and holding it.

    Balance became an issue once I got to the high V-sit progression, as evident in the high V-sit video. I used the cambered hand position to help grip the ground. I got forearm splits from falling backwards while my wrists were turned backwards… Ouch. I started to train it with a couch or mats behind me to catch myself if I lost balance and fell backwards.

    The primary focus is pushing the hips up and out. You can have all the PiCM in the world, but if your hips are not high enough, then your legs will not be parallel, thus no Manna. As hips elevate, your legs will come closer to parallel. Also focus on pushing the shoulders forward while raising hips to help balance out the weight.

    See this picture for hip and shoulder directions visualized.

    To enter the positions of (4), (5), and (6), it is best to start in a compressed butterfly stretch. This helps make compression significantly easier.

    Last, but not least: point your toes!

    Suggestions

    • Do these when you are fresh and warmed-up. I did these after my warm-up and HS work, but before my primary strength work. Focus on warming up the wrists, shoulders, and pike and/or pancake mobility and compression.
    • Losing weight will actually help. While spot reduction is impossible, a lower weight at the same strength is better, and some may come off of the mid-section and thighs, allowing for better PiC. I am not "ripped" by any means, and think this would have helped a lot.

    Training Plan

    Now that the progressions and techniques have been laid out, training suggestions and schedules can be outlined. This schedule will be in addition to your normal training, not in replace of. The order of exercises is up to you.

    The training will take place over two days: Day 1 (D1) and Day 2 (D2). They will be separated into blocks depending on what progression you are on.

    Pre-DP3:

    • D1:

      • 3 sets of L-sit variation, with at least one set of normal L-sit.
      • 2 sets of pike mobility and compression. An example set would be 3x(30-60s standing pike, 10-15x pike compression leg lifts) or Emmet's H2T protocol followed by PiC leg lifts.
      • 2 sets of pancake mobility and compression. An example set would be 3x(30-60s seated pancake, 10-15x PaC leg lifts).
      • Optional: 2 sets of reverse plank leans. Begin with table for 3-5x30s, then progress to reverse plank, then begin leaning.

    • D2:

      • 3 sets of L-sit variation, with at least one set of normal L-sit.
      • 2 sets of pike mobility and compression. An example set would be 2x(30-60s standing pike, 10-15x PiC leg lifts).
      • 2 sets of pancake mobility and compression. An example set would be 2x(30-60s seated pancake, 10-15x PaC leg lifts).
      • 2 sets of standing shoulder extension with weight (reps, sets of 10-15, or for time, sets of 15-30s). Use a dumbbell, light weight bar (not barbell), or weight plate.

    Once you can hold L-sit, straddle L-sit, and advanced L-sit for 3 sets of 15-30s each, you can move on to post-DP3 schedule below. Note: I understand straddle L-sit is quite difficult for some to progress. If you are frustrated with your lack of progress, you may move on to DP3 with a poor straddle L (poor = not reaching 15-30s or lack of form), but should make that your main focus on the D2 L-sit sets below.

    DP3 and after:

    • D1:

      • 3 sets of DP3 or greater. Hands facing back.
      • 2 sets of PiCM.
      • 2 sets of PaCM.

    • D2:

      • 3 sets of L-sit variation, with at least one set of advanced L-sit. If your body can handle it, you can do sets of DP3 instead.
      • 2 sets of PiCM.
      • 2 sets of PaCM.
      • 2 sets of standing shoulder extension with weight OR 2 sets of reverse plank lean.

    Wrists

    Wrists strength and mobility are often a weak link in most people, especially when it comes to Manna training.

    To keep my wrists strong and mobile, I did the following:

    Conclusion

    That's it. That's what got me to my best Manna in the image above. Feel free to ask any questions.

    Understand that you will probably never achieve a true Manna, and if you do, it will be many years after starting this training. Even if you don't, a 90° V-sit is very likely and you will gain strength regardless.

    submitted by /u/Awarenesss
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    Will I loose a lot of strenght after break

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 12:48 PM PDT

    So I'll be submitted to a minor surgery and I will not be able to train for +1.5months , my current max pull ups in a set are 8 and Dips 13, will my repetitions decrease a lot? I'm currently training for 2months btw

    submitted by /u/Thialyon
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    How to Design a Calisthenics Park?

    Posted: 01 Jul 2020 11:56 PM PDT

    Amazing blog post on the future of NYC East River Calisthenics. Do you agree with the author's philosophy?

    submitted by /u/busterbaxter
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    Muscle imbalance that won't go away

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 02:38 PM PDT

    My left side has always been weaker than my right, and I've always tried the age old technique of just concentrating really hard on the weaker side. But still (and especially after a shoulder dislocation injury I had a few years ago) I think it may have gotten worse.

    I literally feel a different connection to my left side. I can barely feel my left lat during many exercises, like pushups and dips. Even on front tucked lever holds and pushups the left side just doesnt feel complete. I feel like my shoulder is unsupported from the back, so I frequently feel pain and soreness in my anterior and medial deltoid. On my right, i can almost always feel my lats there, and they work to support my shoulder really well--it feels natural. I also feel that my left pec doesnt active either. There is a visible size difference in my two pecs because of this.

    Right now what I've been doing are static holds like the active arch hang which really force my left lat to activate, in hopes that that will increase the mind muscle connection. Any other advice is appreciated as it makes most of my calisthenic exercises really difficult from time to time.

    submitted by /u/alldaynikka
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    Which fingers to put the most pressure on when doing chin-ups?

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 02:25 PM PDT

    So Athlean - X made a video about "how your grip is killing your gains" and I'm confused. He said that you should focus on the pointing and middle finger when doing chin ups:

    https://youtu.be/tnhEJwNutT4?t=184 (in the description he said it could also be bad when doing bodyweight chinups)

    But in another video he said that you should put focus on the ringfinger and pinky finger??

    https://youtu.be/dYDJpuDiJGc?t=55 which is the advice I specifically followed over the year.

    Which is it now, or does it not matter in the first place?

    submitted by /u/dank_memer27
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    youtube recommendations on stability exercises,etc

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 10:42 AM PDT

    Looking for good youtube videos on the following:

    1. Stability – training this daily
    2. Strength – 3-days/week
    3. Aerobic Efficiency – 3 hours a week, split between 3-4 sessions
    4. Anaerobic Performance – 2x per week
    submitted by /u/anxietyokra
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    From weightlifting to gymnastic rings

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 10:09 AM PDT

    I've been weightlifting for a year and a half before the pandemic and packed on some considerable size. but my gym is not openning anytime soon and was looking for some gymnastic rings routines which will help me pack on even more size and strength.

    I'm not too weak but here are my B/D/S for reference if you needed them as a reference for where I wanna start:

    Bench: 245 , Deadlift: 350, Squat:350

    submitted by /u/sadow393
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    How do you stop yourself from turning while doing a one arm hang

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 02:29 PM PDT

    Body keeps rotating while I do one arm hangs, any tips on how to prevent this ? Thanks

    submitted by /u/thatshowwedoit44
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    Gymnastics Rings and Rain and Weather

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 09:03 AM PDT

    I bought some Nayoya Gymnastics rings that I was hanging from my pull-up bar indoors. Moved to a new house and we now have a wonderful tree to hang them from. However, I don't want to continuously take them up and down. Has anyone had issues with leaving gym rings up in the weather? Any good solution for "putting them away" without unstrapping them? Any all weather rings I should be considering that would fair better in rain and sun?

    I was going to get a power tower, then I noticed the tree was a potential, cheaper solution.

    submitted by /u/CanterburyTerrier
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    Any tips on fitness mat for outdoor exercising?

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 02:14 AM PDT

    I'd like to get one to exercise outdoors, e.g. in the park, but not sure whether a normal mat would be suitable for that. One important thing is that it should be easy to carry.

    EDIT: I normally go to the park by bike, so it shouldn't be cumbersome to carry

    submitted by /u/antiestress
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    Hand on hand pull ups

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 12:20 PM PDT

    The only place i have at home for pull ups is the heavy bag support, but i need to put my hands together to do it. Is it prejudicial in any form? I'm doing 5x5 every other day. Can it be beneficial or lead to injurys?

    submitted by /u/SpecificQuit8
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    How to develop my inner upper chest

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 12:11 PM PDT

    I've been developing a good shape these past few months, but there's me thing that is annoying me: I can't quite develop the upper part of my chest.

    I searched a lot of exercises and I done some of them for the past 6 months, but I can't see any improvement. Do you guys have any tips or exercises routines to help me with that?

    Currently I'm trying a full body workout every day of the week, this is the schedule that worked the best for me in size and strength. I've been "working out" for 3 years now, but I only really count as 1, because I was not eating properly and not training smart, so almost 2 years in the trash

    submitted by /u/joel_nsc
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    How long should I rest in between sets of pushups?

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 09:34 AM PDT

    I'm a begginer and I wpuld like to know what rest is optimal for gaining strenght in bodyweight excercises like the push up or pull up.

    submitted by /u/mirzajr
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    Push pull leg/ upper lower

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 10:59 AM PDT

    Anyone do a split of both push pull legs and then go into an upper lower split? I've heard people in calisthenics and bodybuilding community recommend this split and wanted to hear what your thoughts are. I currently am on a push pull legs and am wondering whether I should make the switch. It would be more practical for me if I spent a day doing complete upper since it would allow for me have a more relaxed weekend of working out but I am a little hesitant to make the jump because I've never taken more than one rest day before because this split would have two rest days, one after ppl and one after Upper lower. Thoughts?

    submitted by /u/swolleddy
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    Considering Vert Shock Pro

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 02:40 PM PDT

    I have read several reviews online stating that the jump program help them increase their vertical from 16 - 26 inches when they completed the full program. My thought process while reading those reviews is that those who started out with a poor vertical jump would reap the most benefit from the program. I already have a 32 inch vertical jump so I am skeptical of the results that i would get after completing the full program. Do you all think that I should give the program a shot or would the results I get not be worth it. I also wouldn't be paying out of pocket for the program as I found it online here; https://imgur.com/a/FAbHNUJ .Thanks!

    submitted by /u/UhGeo
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    Need advice asap

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 02:39 PM PDT

    Ok so basically im 17 and i havent worked out before, so i decided to go on a 30 day workout plan. Im only doing exercises such as pushups, situps etc(nothing with weights). So after the first 2 days my muscles became really sore and i rested today. So should i give my muscles rest so i wont risk injury or should i work thru the pain because one of my friends told thats how u build muscle.

    submitted by /u/sheryar_
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    Replacing dips with HSPU progression + PPPU progression

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 02:26 PM PDT

    RR says it's fine to do HSPU instead of dips progression, and planche pushups as a progression for pushups. I'm planning to do this, but wouldnt this leave my lower chest weak?

    From what I've heard, pppu works mostly upper chest, and hspu barely works the chest.

    submitted by /u/vaccineskilllives
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    Is AMRAP sets efficient in bodyweight training?

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 12:58 PM PDT

    In many strength training programs, such as Greyskulls, the last set of many exercises are performed with as many reps as possible. Ive read a lot of conflicting arguments that state reps until failure can be detrimental to efficient gains and even downright dangerous.

    Ive been progressing with the bodyweight routine as normally recommended here, doing sets of 3 for exercises and only increasing the reps by 1 per workout. However, i came across this article claiming that AMRAP bodyweight workouts are extremely beneficial and mitigate potential injury.

    I know the topic of the article itself is humorous, but the science behind what he's trying to explain seems reasonable. Im not trying to perform a "Bane" workout but rather introduce AMRAP sets into my current workout. How should this be done, if it should be done at all? Only on my last set of each exercise? Only once a week? Furthermore, the article talks about isotropic holds, such as the static pectoral fly against the ground hold for as long as possible. How could isometrics be involved with a standard routine? Thanks in advance.

    submitted by /u/SantiagoOrDunbar
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    How far can i get without any bars or equipment?

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 12:10 PM PDT

    Im a teenager and dont really have any money for equipment :(

    submitted by /u/McHitlerJr69
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    Any website I could use to search up certain workout?

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 11:09 AM PDT

    For example, I want to see how to do Archer Push Up but I don't know what is the correct form or something like that.

    submitted by /u/insert-lenny-face
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    Pilates for Core and Low Back

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 11:01 AM PDT

    I am on week 3 of the RR and am pleased with my progression. I am a 48-year-old male and looking to gain strength. But I am noticing tightness in my lower back and left hip and glute. Not sure if I am overdoing it and/or not resting enough. But am considering adding a Pilates routine to the mix to help with my core strength and tightness. Does anyone else do a Pilates for men routine?

    I also have the Beachbody PIYO DVD's that I gave my wife years ago and wonder if that routine might work?

    submitted by /u/justgreene71
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    Pullup Bar Recommendation - already browsed. Preferably under $60, reluctantly willing to go up.

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 10:39 AM PDT

    The closest ones that I found on Amazon that were recommended were all out of stock. I can't do rings, no place where I can put them up. I way 150lbs, but hoping to gain at most 20-30lbs if even I want to go there.

    submitted by /u/GoblinGuy5
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    [HELP] GTG vs Till Failure??

    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 09:30 AM PDT

    Which will increase my push ups and pull ups more, training till failure or doing GTG?

    I want to increase my push ups to at least 70 and pull ups to at least 15. Would it be better to do like 5 sets till failure like many people say in videos on how to increase your reps for military fitness tests?

    Also, what should I do and what's the best way to increase my max number of curl ups?

    submitted by /u/Kris19275
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